From "But Love" to "Blessed Funerals": A Pastor's Remarkable Journey | Ken Kuiper

Welcome to the "Retiring and Aspiring" podcast, where we explore the journeys and wisdom of seasoned pastors and those aspiring to lead churches. I'm your host, Mitchell Leach, a pastoral candidate with a calling to lead a congregation someday. In today's episode, we sit down with Ken Kuyper, a pastor with over 40 years of ministry experience. Ken shares valuable insights on leadership, following Christ, and the importance of humility in ministry. Join us as we delve into Ken's experiences and lessons that can inspire and guide you in your pastoral journey.

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Transcript

Hey everyone, welcome to the Retiring and Aspiring podcast. I'm Mitchell Leach, and I feel called to be a lead pastor someday. I'm a pastoral candidate at Peace Church, and as I've taken this journey towards becoming a lead pastor, I've realized that the pastors who have gone before me have so much wisdom to share. So I'm interviewing pastors who have ran the race and have finished their roles as lead pastors. I hope these conversations with retired pastors will help you grow in your leadership and in your calling as a pastor. Let's jump into this week's episode with Ken Kuyper. Ken, I'm here with you, and tell me a little bit more about yourself.

Okay, Mitchell, I've been in ministry about 40 years. Retired from full-time ministry a few years back. Now I'm retired, preach occasionally. I'm a member of Martin Reformed Church in Martin, Michigan. Enjoying life and the Lord's blessing in my life. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more

about your family. I'm sure it's not just you so low-roaming about. Right.

I have my wife Karen has been with me. We've been married 52 years. I have three children, two daughters and a son. That's awesome. Nine grandchildren.

Oh man, that's awesome.

It is. And I have the joy of worshipping with my daughters and their husbands and children. And my son lives north side of Muskegon, so I don't see him as much, but I served quite a while out of state, and so I missed being able to spend as much time with family. So I'm thankful for that. Where did you serve? Well, the most recent place I served, well, let me back up. I'll give a quick thumbnail of where I served. I began my ministry at Fourth Reformed Church there. I was there for six years. Then I was on part of the leadership team of Words of Hope Radio Ministry. And I went to preach. I preached a lot for them around the country, different churches. And I preached at First Reformed Church in Lansing, Illinois.

Okay.

They called me to serve there, and we were there for 17 years. Oh, wow. And then when I retired from there, I actually came, moved back here, was on staff at Peace Church in Middleville for five years, and then really retired and since then have served as a pulpit supply for churches and that sort of thing. Okay,

really cool. So you love preaching. I do. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Yeah. I love it too. It's just it's fun to meet other people who have that that that desire that. Yeah. Well, let's jump into our first question. Sure. Alright. So here it is. We usually ask two questions for everyone, and here's the first one. What was the single most important decision you made as your time as a lead pastor?

There's not an answer to that, because there wasn't a single most important decision. And, you know, every decision has a story connected with it. So if I could tell a story. Yeah, absolutely. When I was pastor – well, let me start with the first one. I've got like maybe three here if that's okay.

Yeah, that's totally okay.

Okay, okay. kicked out of a seminary because of questions I had asked. And it was a very traumatic kind of experience. And a situation where in most denominations it wouldn't have been a problem at all. But in this particular denomination, these questions were ones they didn't want to hear. So I got kicked out. And my wife hates it when I say I got kicked out, but I was asked not to return. I think that's...

Yeah.

I think that's being kicked out. For sure. And then I went back to selling cars. But I kept having this feeling I needed to go into ministry. And so I went to a different seminary. And in a way, that went well. But then, okay, I get this call to the First Church. And I didn't have any boundaries. I was doing everything. I didn't really take any day off. I was preaching all the time. I was leading everything. I was involved in committees. I had eight funerals the first year and weddings and all this sort of thing. And after about a year and a half, I just totally crashed. Yeah, it's a great way to make your wife happy, right? Oh, well, I just totally crashed. Yeah. I thought it was over. Yeah. And if it wasn't for this one elder who really took me under his wing and was a real advocate. I'm not sure what would have happened, really, honestly. And so a leadership decision there was that you have to have self leadership and that you have to set boundaries for yourself and that you can't be everything to all people. You have to learn to say no to some things. You have to provide yourself time away. And that was, it was a tremendously important lesson. Years later, I read in Bill Heibel's book, Courageous Leadership, how a similar thing happened to him. How he ended up, I think it was in New Buffalo or South Haven, Michigan, crying in his coffee at McDonald's, because he had just burned out. because he had just burned out. And so I learned those lessons, and they are tremendously important. And I tried to implement them the rest of my ministry. Sometimes people wouldn't understand, because people would say things like, oh, you know, this pastor is so wonderful because he's at the hospital every day, seeing people and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, and when does he have time to do his messages and so on. So learning to discipline myself and be a self-leadership is a tremendous lesson.

I don't think I could have made it through the ministry without it. Can I ask, what were some of the things that you kind of cut out, things that you were doing to try to keep your life or ministry a little bit more,

maybe not in balance, but a little bit more, to have boundaries. Yeah, sure. One of the problems was I truly enjoyed every aspect. I'm a people person, so I love the time with people. Yeah. I felt highly called to preach. So the preaching was important. And I never felt super confident in preaching, but I felt a high regard for preaching, that you had to take it very seriously. And so I spent a lot of time and effort and a lot of prayer and depending on the Lord. And so I didn't want to cut that out. But I did have to work some time where there was some pulpit relief, because when I was first in the ministry, it was just expected you're preaching twice every Sunday and doing a midweek and leading Bible studies and doing Sunday school. And I just found myself trimming back kind of on a number of those things. And seeing the need to to get help in the sense of somebody who could help with a pastoral load. Yeah, okay. In particular, hospital visitation and that sort of thing.

Yeah, so what was your solution to that? Did you like hire someone to do that? Yeah. Was that like just a super big blessing for your ministry?

Absolutely.

Yeah?

Yeah. In fact, in the final church that I served, first Reformed on Lansing, Illinois, we had a retired pastor on staff who loved that aspect of the work. And he was such a godsend. His name was Jake Dykstra, and I just thank God for him all the time. He loved being there at the hospital, and it just took such a load off of me. It was wonderful.

So you said you had a few blessings.

Yeah.

Yeah, you know, when I was pastor at Martin Reformed Church, right then I was at the age where I was getting contact from a lot of search committees and stuff. And I got a letter from a search committee. I looked at it and decided, you know, I'm not going to pursue this. Friday morning, I'm praying, and I'm just telling the Lord kind of how the day is going to flow. And I say to the Lord, and so I'm going to write them and tell them thanks but no thanks. And I'm not one who would say that I hear the voice of the Lord very often, like a direct, like a verbal voice. But I did that day.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

Because as I'm praying, I'm saying that I'm going to tell them thanks but no thanks. The Lord very clearly said to me, no, you're not. And I just stopped in my tracks in my prayer and said, what am I going to say? And the Lord said, you are going to say, you are not presently seeking a call, but you are open to the Lord's leading in this. And I said, yes, Lord, amen. I thought to myself, okay, what was the Lord teaching me? Well, obviously what the Lord was saying is, don't you ever make decisions and then tell me what they're going to be. You look to me to make your decisions. Yeah. And I think for someone who's in pastoral ministry, that is so crucial.

Yeah.

We say that we're involved in a spiritual work, and we are. And so, if we're going to be spiritual leaders, we have to be following the call of the Lord in big things and little things. And so, I never made a decision. The same again, I can honestly say.

Oh wow. I just think the implications of that. So in your time as a lead pastor, you know, changing the way of saying, hey, God, this is what I'm going to do. Yeah. Bless it. Right. You know, I feel like there's so many times that that's that's how I can approach God.

Maybe not saying it just like that, but. Right. You know, you had said before we went on the air, so to speak, about finishing well. Yeah. And one of the lessons the Lord taught me along the way was how important it is for us to do exactly that. And how important godliness is in that. When I was first in the ministry, I was captivated by this other Christian leader who had written these books and I was reading those books. I was excited about everything he was doing and he's going to be speaking at a conference and I was booked for it and I was going to go hear him. And he was, you know, he has a big name. And then just before the conference, it came out that he had been involved in an extramarital affair for seven years. And it crushed me. As a young pastor, it truly crushed me. And I thought, and what does that do to his ministry? How does that discredit all this good stuff that he's done? There have been other times through the course of my life that I've seen this with pastors. And we need to protect ourselves from temptation and to devote ourselves to godliness. People ask, well, what's a good leader? What's the important thing to be as a leader? Well, in Christian ministry, the most important thing to be as a leader is godly. Because that's what people are looking to you for, a model of godliness. Not perfection, but godliness. Somebody who genuinely believes in the Lord, loves the Lord, is devoted to the Lord, and is a disciple of the Lord. In my own life, as a ministry leader, I just constantly would come back to that. And as I'd lead in our elder meetings and so on, too, we would just talk about that. And we'd pray for godliness, that our elders would be godly men, godly husbands, godly fathers, godly churchgoers, godly business owners, godly men, you know, just... And for me, that's just so hugely important. men, you know, just and

For me that just so hugely important. Yeah, so how did you do that personally because I think you're right finishing Well is such an important thing. It's part of the reason that I wanted you to come on here where we invite Pastors who have finished their ministry. Well

You know you said that before

About the guy that you went to go visit, you know, what does that do for his ministry? It really doesn't matter how many books he wrote. I mean, I'll bet you nobody's reading those books anymore It matters that you finish well So, how did you do that personally because it takes intentionality It's not something that you just fall into and like oh, I you know never had a you know an affair or never Embezzled money or you know

It's something that you have to be. Kevin Harney has a marvelous book on leadership, leadership from the inside out. And in one of the chapters there, he's talking about somebody say Are you really like afraid of being like alone with a woman who's not your wife? You know in a car kind of thing like something could happen, and it's like yes Yeah, of course of course so it has to be that we don't trust ourselves in a way Yeah Not because we're putting ourselves down just because we're aware of how easily these things happen. Like the leaders who fall, they don't wake up one morning and say, you know, I think I'll fall into something. Yeah.

It's like it happens.

And so we don't trust ourselves. And instead, we constantly ask the Lord for help and finishing well. It brings to mind the fact my own pastor right now is retiring. This Sunday is his last Sunday. And I just sent him a text yesterday telling him that I'm just identifying with him and the emotions he must be having now, laying down the work after all these years. And it's such a huge change when you retire. But he's finishing well. He's a faithful servant of God. He's preached his word. He's loved his people. He's honored Christ. I mean, what more is there? It's like to come to the end of your ministry and to know in your heart that the Lord can say, well done. Not perfect, but well done, good and faithful servant. It's incredible. And I think a big part of that, too, another little lesson I learned along the way. The first church I served, we had evening services, and so the way the church was designed, it was lined up along this evening sun came in the balcony, and the sun would come through that window. And I would notice that over and over again, and I would think to myself, you know, Ken, you have an audience of one. If Jesus is going, good job, even if everyone sitting in the pews is going, boy, this is boring, whatever. You've done well. But if everyone there is intrigued by what you're saying, and Jesus is shaking his head no, you've blown it. So I think seeing it very clearly that you truly have an audience of one, it's a centurion, who asked Jesus to heal his servant, and he says, you don't have to come, just say the word, because I too am a man under authority. I say to this servant, go, and he goes. I say to this one, come when he comes. And I know you have that same authority. And Jesus said, oh, this kind of faith. But that's the truth. I mean, as ministers, as leaders, we're people under authority. We're under the authority of our master, our King Jesus. And we're accountable to him. So it's like, that's, it's so freeing to know that. Because Because if you're in a large church especially, I mean, to think that you have a thousand bosses, I mean, a thousand people you have to please, it's overwhelming. But if you're pleasing Jesus, you're good. If I can, one more little thing as far as a lesson learned. When I was at Words of Hope, one of the privileges the Lord gave me there, and you know, the Lord doesn't waste anything in your life. He's using everything to make you a better leader. I got to relate to our broadcasters. We were in 45 languages around the world. And I got to go to India and meet with broadcasters there and so humble. And he worked for Words of Hope, but he also had a secular job, and they wanted to promote him and make him a big deal. And he didn't take that, because it would have affected his ministry. And he wrote a note that I had framed and put on my desk for years. It said, but the Lord had a different plan. He would guide and use an incompetent person like me for his glory.

The more I hear these stories, those are the easiest to sometimes forget about. In ministry, at least maybe for me, this maybe is just an honest moment, but I think it's easy to say, you know, today I'm going to focus on making myself the best leader I can be rather than, you know, today I'm gonna focus on being humble and making sure that people see that and making sure that I'm caring for other people more than I'm caring for myself. But those are the things that define a legacy that you're gonna leave, not whether or not you could, you know, have a capital campaign that's successful. You know, it's the, it's those fundamental things that lead longevity. Well, there's great things about capital campaigns. Sure, yeah. And having the leadership to do them well. Yeah. It's tremendously important. Yeah. It truly is.

But the way they are done well is by a humble leader who is leading this church to embrace that.

Yeah.

And I learned along the way, I mean, I've read a lot of things on leadership, I've watched a lot of people who are good leaders and others who claim to be good leaders. And the thing that turned me off very early on was manipulation and leadership And leadership that didn't come out of being a good follower, a good follower of Jesus Christ. Yeah. I mean, Jesus launched the 12 disciples into ministry only after they had been followers for three years. And I mean, our call, more than being a leader, is to be a follower, a follower of Christ. Yeah, I think that's really important. Our people, they're looking for sincerity, genuineness in their leaders. And they respond to it. And if they see someone who is manipulating them or not living out the things that really are about godly leadership, how can they respond to that? I mean, why should they respond to that?

Yeah, I even think about, you know, most of the people that are in our congregation, we're not calling to leadership.

It would be a bad thing if everybody

in our congregation was a leader. That would just be too messy. And I think if you're a lead pastor and you can't model the fact that you can follow. You're going to mislead people.

Because that's, I think, our number one call is to follow.

Yeah, that's so good.

Well, let's jump into our second question.

Are you okay with that? All right, the second question is this. What was the craziest thing that happened to you during your time as a lead pastor? Well, in the course of 40 years, there's a lot of interesting things that happen.

Yeah.

But I think the way I'd like to respond to that is, when I was at First Reformed in Lansing, Illinois, I went there knowing that it would be a hard ministry. People had made me aware of that. And it was. It was a real hard ministry. It was a disunified congregation. And the first eight years were just really, really hard. And then, I was there 17 years, so the last nine years were really wonderful. The first eight were really hard. And one of the blessings along the way there was some of the things that my wife and I were able to go to that helped. One of them was They had a program for pastors. H.B. London was the gentleman's name who was like the pastor to pastors. And he spoke from a wealth of his own experience. And we went to a, it wasn't really a conference, but a gathering of ministers where he was speaking. He said, okay, what about butt love? And everybody was like, what do you mean, butt love?

Yeah, that's what I'm asking.

He goes, you know what I mean, where people come to you and go, I love you, Pastor, but this, but that." And I had just been experiencing so much of that very thing. Like I said, we were disunified, and there were people who were—some thought we were moving too fast as a congregation, some thought we weren't moving at all as a congregation, some thought we were too liberal, some thought we were too conservative, some thought—it was just, yeah, it was quite a mixture. And so I'd have people in my office, I love you, pastor, I love you, PK, that's what they called me. I love you, PK, but I'm leaving. They go to this church over here, I'm leaving to do this, or but this, or but that. And so, but love. And from then on, it's like, it just gave me a whole new perspective on butt love.

Yeah.

And another thing he talked about, now this, I don't know, you may even cut this out later, but he talked about blessed funerals. And he said, you know what I mean, blessed funerals. He said sometimes there are people in the congregation who just, you know, they just don't flow with the way you flow.

I think I see where you're going with this.

And he says, but then they die. And he says, and those are blessed funerals. And we're all kind of going, really? And he goes, yes. Now, he says, if you believe your theology, you know that they are better off, because they're in heaven. And you sure know you're better off. So those are blessed funerals.

Yeah.

And I have to say, I had some blessed funerals along the way. Yeah. That the Lord really used to open up new opportunities.

Yeah. Every pastor can relate to that. There are just some people that, you know, it's just hard to do ministry with. True enough. No, that's a great saying. That's great.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

And another thing, okay, crazy thing, a God thing. I used to run a lot. In fact, I had the privilege of running a marathon once, but a whole lot of other races along the way. And when I first went to the church in Illinois, there was a pastor who had been pastor there, who retired there and then stayed there. There was kind of a thorn in the side of the pastor who followed him that I was running, and I asked the Lord, Lord, how should I deal with this person? What should I do? And in my own mind, I'm thinking what I should do is probably try to isolate him and find a way to just work around him and so on. spirit, honor him, honor him. I said, honor him. Yes, honor him. He served there 22 years or something. Find a way to honor him. And so as I'm running, I'm thinking, yeah, how can we honor him? And the Lord said, in my spirit, has he been declared a meritus, which is an honorary term for a pastor. I said, I don't know, but I'll find out. And what would be a good thing, like establish a scholarship in his honor or a chair of theology in his honor or something, some way to honor him. And I got to work on that right away and we did that. It was such a beautiful thing because it just changed the whole dynamic. God's answer was so much better. I thought, exactly. We honored him and he became an ally to me instead of a thorn in my flesh. Yeah, that's awesome. I was just wondering, like, how, you know, that seems like the worst nightmare to go into a church where the former lead pastor is going to retire and he's going to stick around. I mean, it just does, right? Like, it seems like, you know, he's going to still have, like, your elders are really his elders, you know, the people that he has relationships with. And yeah, how do you handle that? But that seems like, yeah, such a better way to do it then? Absolutely. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, but it's not what I would have thought of. Yeah, it was definitely a God thing. So how did he respond to that? This guy? Very well. Yeah, very, very well. And see, he had been there already like 10 years as a retired pastor and had been a real problem for the pastor before me. In what way, can I ask? Well, sure. People would go to him instead of the pastor. He'd insert himself in things. He'd call into question decisions the pastor had made, and it just became very difficult. Yeah, I'm sure. So it was a real concern for me when I went to that church, that he was there. And yeah, the Lord just answered that in such a beautiful way. It's beautiful.

Yeah, that sounds like an amazing thing. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, I've got one third question that popped into my mind. Sure. Kind of as we're wrapping up, what would you say to someone like me, who's in a season of either getting ready to become a lead pastor, or who is maybe brand new in being a lead pastor?

Mitchell, I'm just really impressed that you are doing these podcasts, and that you are wanting to draw on the experience of older leaders. And I think that is crucial. I don't think you can do anything more important than finding an older mentor. One thing that I have found that has been troubling to me, real honestly, is that there is an arrogance to youth and that there are some young leaders who seem to think that they don't need any wisdom from those who've gone before. It's like they may have an older person on staff or whatever, but they never consult them never talk to them. Yeah, and I think it's hugely important. You know, it's very biblical. Yeah draw from the wisdom of those who have Who've served yeah who have run the race and speak The Paul and Timothy sort of thing. Yeah, I just think that's huge. So, like for yourself or for some other young leader who's either aspiring to be a lead pastor or in any role in ministry, really, to have somebody that they spend time with. And I can say from my side of the fence that for us as older pastors who've done that, it's just such an honor to be able to speak into the lives of younger people. When I was on staff here at Peace Church, there was a young man who was part of the aspiring ministers track. He was preparing to be in ministry, he was in seminary, and he worked here. A gifted young man. And he asked me once, he said, you know, PK, could we just meet together and talk? Just, you know, go out for coffee and talk. And so we started doing that. And it has been one of the biggest blessings in my life. And it's a blessing for him, too. He tells me over and over how much benefit he's drawn from it. And now he's flourishing in ministry. And it's just such a wonderful thing. Yeah, that's awesome.

Yeah.

Well, Ken, thank you for your time. And thank you for sharing your wisdom. This is, I think, a podcast I'll have to go back personally and listen to just because I think there's so much that you've shared. And I just thank you for your ministry. I'm just so grateful that we had finally got to sit down and to talk and to Yeah, so thank you for being honest about some really Real things that happened during your time in ministry. It's been a real pleasure. Yeah, it really has been so thank you

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Transcribed with Cockatoo